Dowman Stars In The Cup As Attention Turns To The Champions League

Elliot Smith0:34Manchester City have successfully meticulously laid out the case for not banning Rodri. Rumor has it they delivered that argument in a brown envelope. This is the ArsenalVision Postman podcast. Name is Alex Fithig, block me on Twitter Yankee Gunner. Yeah, just stuffed their well written and thought out defensive Rodri into a brown envelope slid that under someone's door and they read the meticulously written materials and determine that Rodri should not be banned. For doing the thing that they now say he didn't do. So it's all good football still operating according to all the rules that we expect it to operate according to we're going to talk about Mansfield. And Liam Racine, you would have you know, that that's literally the word Mansfield, which is where the game was played. Apparently, we're going to talk about that game. We're going to talk about Max Dowman a lot Marley Salmon a bit and a few other bits and pieces from that game. We will not be putting this out in time to tell you about the FA Cup draw. But I have no doubt that it will be Liverpool at Anfield while Manchester City get port Vale at the Etihad. Only saying that because you know what happened last time, but don't say anything. Don't say anything. We are then going to preview our trip to Germany to Leverkusen to face a buyer Leverkusen team who drew three at the weekend. So the good news is they conceded three goals. The bad news is they scored three goals. Should we be more excited or scared? Clive will let you know all that we're going to be doing a preview pod of that tomorrow more of a

Elliot Smith1:54Champions League knockout preview pod an overview of the round of 16 tomorrow over on Patreon. Can join there by using the code saliva 50 and getting it for a couple of quid we put out a pod with Jason Rosenfeld is the founder of stat Jason Rosenfeld, the founder of stat DNA talking about his time at Arsenal. He talked about the woe be and will look and Ainsley Maitland Niles and you know how he sort of helped bring the data revolution Arsenal so an interesting interview there if you want to get it and thanks to Kent Malmors for putting that one together. Okay, enough of me. Here's the man you came to hear. Hello, Clive.

Clive Palmer2:28I'm alright. Not looking as sharp as you in the camera that you've got.

Elliot Smith2:33Mostly people listen to the pod so they can't see you know that that my genes are just doing great at my age of 38 years old Clive at 38 you have you've just got some years on me That's what it comes down to but the people on YouTube will see that um look we couldn't have Paul Looking the sharpest of the group could we could can't have that it's the fogging of standards mate exactly um

Clive Palmer2:49That can't happen. That can't happen. I expect my camera in the post.

Elliot Smith2:55So There's there is a lot to get to I guess the place I want to start with this Mansfield ties just this was sort of a proper cup tie. It was played on a bad pitch away. You know, they're really up for the cup as everybody knew that would be it was a huge rotational lineup, obviously, as you'd expect. But the big news is, is the 16 year olds getting the start Max Downman and Marley Salmon. Before we get into them specifically, how much pride does it give you to see what the Arsenal Academy is generating right now and just we're so wrapped around the axle of this title race and the stress of every game. Did you enjoy the chance to take a step back from that for a day? Watch these 16 year olds play and really just feel a swell of pride for what the club is producing.

Clive Palmer3:44Yeah, it's always nice to see new young players come in so we can comment on them and either over-hype them or criticise them for making a mistake. Same old stuff. But it is nice to see what's happening in the Academy. There are some young players who are coming through. I think it's a deeper discussion. I know you have a discussion on the Academy during the month. We do produce stars, but I think there needs to be level of. Level raising, you know, so for the ones who are good, they're really good. And we all know who they are. And there are some coming behind this next set who are equally good, but people not speaking about yet because they're young, you know, so we have got the ability to have stars and we nurture those and we want them to play. Not looking to sell. We want them to play. If they complain the team and really add value to the first team, then that's what we try to do. So I like that approach. There are other people that sell their academy kids to a much greater level than we do. City and Chelsea, for example, and even Lil' Plo up to a point. Lil' Plo had a young player, under-21 player called Tyler Morton, who went off to France for 20 million quid. No one remembers him. Just did well from 21s off he went and they probably got a buyback in there or sent on in there. And we don't tend to do that very much. We tend to really build them to come into the team and play. So it's good to see two coming in.

Clive Palmer5:12They're both amazingly talented. Don't worry about this game. Just think about what they're doing at this age. It's absolutely incredible. And for them to have that much influence on a first team game at the adults level, and we can all see it, it was really, really promising.

Elliot Smith5:29Yeah, it is really promising. It is really exciting. And Mikel was asked about Max and Marley. Well, so first thing he said on Max Dowman's performance, he went to both them well, I'm very proud of him very proud as well of Marley, obviously to 16 year olds starting in the FA Cup. That tells us a lot about them, their personality and the quality that they have. And Max Yeah, I think he was exceptional. One thing he says, and I had it here, but I think it is the first time ever that two 16 year olds started together in the competition, which incredible on how they adapted to the game. Well, first of all, congratulations to them because to make their full debuts in the FA Cup, I think Max is the youngest ever in the competition. And this competition has been going on for a while. So it tells you how difficult that is. And I'm very proud of them. I hope Jaden enjoyed it the same with their debut. And to continue to work is just the first step for them. And there's plenty more to come. Um, Clive, let's just get into Max Dowman for a minute. I thought Max Dowman was the best player on the pitch in this game. And what was interesting about this game is it was a obviously a bobbly muddy pitch, not the best surface to play on. And you can see that impacting a lot of players, some of who will come to later didn't seem to be impacting him too much. He had that one sensational moment where he turned in midfield dribbled past most of the man's field team and got his shot away. Could have had two goals one volley that he hit a little too close to the keeper one shot. That was really cleverly struck and the keeper got it with his trailing leg. He was influential in just about everything we did well late he fed Akai Osaka for what could have been

Elliot Smith6:56A goal. He seems to have the unusual ability at 16 to not just want to show his own talent, but to platform his teammates as well to know when to give the ball. And from a stature standpoint, he has the physical power, he has the size to do what he needs to do. He won a lot of duels in this game, which is something you know, you're facing League One big men who are used to a physical game. Well, when it comes to the duels, he was seven of 12 on his ground duels, which is pretty good as well. So thoughts on what shined in his game and maybe any little bits and pieces you pulled out of areas to improve or just overall how he impacted the performance.

Clive Palmer7:33Alright, so let's peel back a little bit. Think he got an injury in an under-21s game at Manchester United. I think a game that was used to get J. Zeus fit. And someone took him out in that game and he suffered a two, three months injury. It was at a similar time scale to Mosquera, I remember. Mosquera had been banned back a little while. Now, this is where I sort of got a lot of. Obviously, you never know with the injury of medical information, but there was a conversation saying he could have come back sooner, but he's also growing. Developing and so not to rush the player back from injury when his body's still forming is really good particularly we could have used him but forget about that it's about his longer-term development and making sure that everything's in place which I think is really admirable and also from seeing him from when he used to be you know you can see that he might have an ankle injury but he still pick up a dumbbell he's definitely built up a little bit in his time out probably worked on those areas of your body just to make sure they're balanced out, et cetera. And you have a bit of time to just grow, you know, because he's not done yet at 16, he's not done. And so that's always a positive thing. It's the first time we've seen him in the interior, in the adults team, in the first team, when he plays that role a lot for the youth team, 21. So we see him inside. I never had any doubts about it, to be honest. He's going to be on the right-hand side of that pitch, isn't he, eventually?

Clive Palmer9:00Down that line and we play a brand of football in a system that you can see where he can slot in even one or two positions. He has all those associated qualities to bring other people into play but he also has the ability, this is the thing he mentioned earlier, he has the ability and the personality to play. There are many, many talented young players but can they walk into that environment, feel comfortable and play football on the same level? And I personally don't know how he does it at 16. And then put on his school uniform and go back to school. I mean, it's just incredible. It's just one in a million stuff. Marley Salmond is saying to have the ability to want to twist and turn and on the ball and not be scared of the game, not be scared of the moment, have such confidence in your talent. Arthur Venger spoke once about, you know, the final part of a player is building the roof of the house, right? The mentality and these guys have the mentality and the personality. There are many, many, many good footballers, but not everyone can apply their talent in this environment. And that's what he does. And that's what's so exciting. He has the ability to be like a protagonist, to sort of provoke

Clive Palmer10:13Play, lead play. I mean, what are we talking about here? You know, this is scary stuff.

Elliot Smith10:18Can I ask something? Because I look, I want to be cautious to some extent, because we have a lot of big things to win. And this is a player who's at the dawn of his career, right? But certain of the qualities that he had on display against Mansfield, and I accept that it's bottom of the of League One level, was the ability to initiate attacks through a dribble and a carry. At quickening the tempo, bringing the ball forward. And one thing that I will say is that Eberheide has been really good this season in patches and in other times he's had a harder time getting involved in the game. But we've all been saying where we miss Odegaard a bit is that sort of back to front ball carrying that middle third carrying an instigation of attacks. Eze likes to sit more in the left half space. He wants to be between the lines waiting to receive the ball. Max Dowman seems to be able to get on the ball a little more easily in the right half space. He is more of a right eight than a left eight. And so I'm not going to sit here and say is Max Dowman the solution to improving our attacking play because we all know he is. He jokes. But I am going to ask if you think there is scope for him to have a midfield role in games that matter the rest of this season. And I don't mean starting them all, but I in impacting those games because I can see a scenario where it's Rice Zubimendi and Max Dowman in a game where we face a team that's going to be more reactive, that's going to sit deeper.

Elliot Smith11:46And we need someone to beat a man and pull defenses out of place or is that just getting way ahead of myself?

Clive Palmer11:50Yeah, it's getting way ahead of yourself. In my opinion, who knows, football changes very, quickly. Hey, look, he's on his way. He is on his way. It's more or less about what's good about him is he is different to the others. You know, he does want to carry the ball. He doesn't want to provoke play. You know, he does. And what's really good about this game, came deeper and he also held people off. He won a few tackles. We've seen this stuff all for the first time. Spent a lot of time on the right wing. That could be an option. We saw Saka playing inside. There are starts of games, there ends of games. We have a situation in attacking with field at the moment. We've no Odegaard, no Marina and Kai Havertz just back in the room. We all know that. We hope he can stay fit, but we're not too sure. Right? To keep Kai Havertz fit, this is another option, isn't it? To rest Eze on the cane, because he can't play every single game.

Elliot Smith12:45He's not gonna play 90 minutes every three days for the rest of the season. And he's really our only sort of final third end product oriented eight left in the team, especially if Odegaard is gonna be out in another three weeks or so.

Clive Palmer12:57Yeah, so we have a gap. So that means he gets in the squad, doesn't it? That's for me anyway, he gets in the squad and from there on in, it's where the game state suits and you go from there. So at this moment in time, it's hard enough to get in the Arsenal squad, but with the few injuries that we have, it's a little bit easier at the moment. But I'm looking at this and thinking there are games you should be in the squad for. Because we're in four competitions and every minute you can play and have an impact is going to be important. For your own game or for your own career or to protect players for later in the season. It's really, that's the key for me having players in shape. Cause Elliot, we got, we have some massive games coming up. You can just tell if they're coming, you know, and, and that's without various draws in the FA Cup to come out yet and see what happens. What the Champions League is sorted out at the moment, but who knows what's happening. We've got some massive games coming up and it doesn't matter what the name of the team we're playing. They're to be massive games and they will feel massive. And you want people who are not scared and he does not play scared.

Elliot Smith14:00He might be too young to be scared. He's just going out and playing football like a kid. It's fun. I get on the pitch and I play football. I don't know. Mean, he was four of seven on dribbles. And I have been saying this for a while, but I do think that is an area where the data would say we are at the lower end of the league table. We don't have a lot of dribblers. He can win penalties. He's done that a lot at youth level. And I accept it's because the players are just not good enough to keep up with them. They get frustrated. They kick the crap out of him. But you know, if I look at our midfield construction right now, and I say it's rice and soup of Andy every three days for 90 minutes. All right, so Norgaard's got to come in and play a bit. He'd like to think Kai can give you some midfield minutes. I would not expect to see Merino back this season. Odegaard is still a bit away. That means as is going to be looked at as, you know, a potential 70 to 90 minute player every three days and you say who's someone that can be a more advanced number eight in that group that can take some minutes. If it's not him, I actually don't know who it is. You could say, well, it's SACA and then Noni goes out on the wing. But to be

Clive Palmer15:01Well, you suck, Yeah.

Elliot Smith15:04Fair, you're what you're really saying then is SACA has got to play 90 minutes every three days. So Max has the opening at least if he can use it to pick up minutes in a space where currently I think we look a bit light and he doesn't. You know, we talked about meritocracy a lot. There's no meritocracy with 16 year olds, 16 year olds have to be protected. But with what he showed against League One opposition, if we're two goals up against Everton in a couple of weeks and it's the 70th minute, I don't think it's crazy to say at the Emirates with a lead that that's his next chance to show he can go up a level and see where you go from there.

Clive Palmer15:40I'm of the opinion that it's great that he's come back from three months out and he looked a little bit tired in the second half, which is understandable. But he's also got the same personality. He's still brave, still wants to get involved. The bravery is what I like in personality because, you know, that doesn't come along every two minutes. His moments will come. It'll be obvious. It will be obvious. And it may come this season. Who knows? You know, there could be a moment there where he needs something different and he provides it. Who knows what's going to happen? But there are other senior players that are there, Cutler and Ringer at the moment, even Trossard dropped out a little bit at the weekend. So there's a gap there for him to be in the squad and then the game state and the game will take care of itself.

Elliot Smith16:22Yeah. And like, I get that we do this right, a young player, who we're really excited about comes in and flashes a bit of talent, and we want to accelerate their development. And the club has to be careful not to do that. First of all, the last thing you need to do is overplay him and cause another injury. He's only just back. But you know, the squad is about where you have depth and strength and where you don't. And I do think he fits a position. That currently is a challenge.

Clive Palmer16:51See you then.

Elliot Smith16:51Do think he has the kinds of qualities that currently are missing. And by the way, Rio and Gamow is playing for Liverpool. Okay, and I realized, yep,

Clive Palmer16:59He's 17 and a half. Yeah.

Elliot Smith17:01I get it. But you know, he's in there. We've seen Pep use very young players in the past in key situations. Rico Lewis was used when he was quite young. And again, I know you're talking more 17, 18 than 16. I get it. So a measure of caution, but I think a very big dose of excitement as well about what he is. And if he's playing in the FA Cup, like at some point, Clive, you don't get to say the, shouldn't be talking about him. He's too young. Because if you're playing in the FA Cup, if you're making Premier League appearances, then you're out there. You know, you're no longer a secret. I think we can analyze what we're seeing, you know.

Clive Palmer17:35Yeah, he's a good player. Make no mistake. I'm also conscious of making sure that he develops at the right pace for him, you know, and has the right physical introduction to this level. It's not easy. He hasn't done it a ton. And so he may not recover the same way as when you're more robust. We don't know that. We just see the talent and think, oh, he's fine. You he might be laid up today for, know. And I always think about there's so many examples of players that really shine young, but maybe struggle because they may be slightly overplayed young. I'll give you a good example. I remember watching 16 year old Harvey Elliott playing for Fulham. And I thought, wow, this kid's going to go all the way. And they'll bought him, quite well on occasions. He does well for the England youth teams, really well in 21s. Now he's struggling to play. He's at Villa on a bad deal, struggling to play. Really his career is at a crossroads. I have the same feelings, right? Despite recognizing his talent, it's hard not to see it. The balance, the way he glides and moves, his contact on the floor is so minimal, it means he looks very, very quick. He's got intelligence, he plays a game in the future. I don't think this is a Harvey Elliot, but it's a cautionary tale. It's a cautionary tale and we just have to be patient.

Clive Palmer19:01I'm sorry if I sound like an old man on this one, I believe in,

Elliot Smith19:05You are an old man.

Clive Palmer19:06I do believe in, I do believe in impatience because if we get this right, we are talking about a generational player, you know? And because Jack Walsh was fantastic when he was young, he didn't have the same physicality. You know, he didn't have the height. He didn't have the same physicality, lots of talent. If anything, you know, lots of talent, loads of talent, but took a bad injury very, very early in his Arsenal career and then was always catching up thereafter. This kid is different. Could be the very best player we've ever produced. Quite clearly, that can happen if he's allowed to develop physically and take his time. We've got many years of this, you know, so I am a bit of a cautionary tale. I'm not saying I can't see the talent. I just want to see the talent come through at the right time.

Elliot Smith19:57And I think that's completely understandable. Let me invoke one other player as sort of a question for you because similar ish area of the pitch similar ish age range says fabric asks like, what I think is also analogous and a little different because sesc arrived at the end of a dominant era. But sesc was sort of brought through in a dominant era with big, strong men who are at the top of the game for their club in their country winning everything. Do you see an analogous situation there with Max?

Clive Palmer20:28Yeah, I think with that situation, it's different about Max, that we've made him ourselves. Everything we're talking about, he's one of ours. We've made him, we've known him since he was very, very young. And now he's family, everyone around him. They've had a chance to prepare for this moment. He's not a secret to anybody, you know? And so they got a chance to prepare for this moment, extra exposure. He's done an indigenous advert the other day. What 16 year olds do that? You know, that tells you something about him.

Elliot Smith20:53I didn't do mine until I was 19.

Clive Palmer20:55And so. And so we've a chance with Cesc, it was slightly different. We enticed him to come over. We made promises to him that you'll be in the first team group. He came in the first team group and started to tear it up. But at 16, he wasn't at the same physical development that Max is today. He needed a little bit more time before he eventually got in. But once he got in, he looked after the ball and didn't give it to anybody else and never gave it away. And where football was at that time, that was more than enough. You think about what he's for the club thereafter, absolutely fantastic. But, you know, I just feel with Max, I just think this one is different. This is an Arsenal boy. This is different. Know, every player, every one we've had apart, we've either bought in a superstar players, the top, top level people, the Thierry Henrys, the Rieras, the Bergcamps. This is one of ours, which makes it really, really special. Let's see where he gets to.

Clive Palmer21:56You know, I'm almost like, I'm so, I got such belief in his talent. I almost like scared anything go wrong, you know what Because I think he could be, I think he could be very, very special.

Elliot Smith22:07Seth Fabregas in his age 17 season, 33 Premier League appearances, five Champions League appearances, 2500 minutes roughly. You know, that would be the next season for Max. And I do think if you really believe you have a generational talent on your hands, and we've been using that word a lot lately, because we have it in Bekayo Saka, we may have something in Myles Ouskele, we certainly think we have it in Ethan, we absolutely think we have it in Max, then you do have to think about your squad in terms of this player is not going to knock on the door forever, they're going to

Clive Palmer22:37Well, that's a summer

Elliot Smith22:37Burst it, burst it down, you know?

Clive Palmer22:39Conversation. I've got some sums in my head that I'm adding up about what could happen in the summer. And I'm sure that that's part of the longer discussion that we've had before he signed his contract, et cetera. Different world compared to Cesc's world. There's whole new light shining on young players today. And he had three big games in a row, scores a winning goal against a big team. Then he becomes. The most famous 16 year old in the world overnight. And that's what you've got to be preparing for. You've got to be ready for that. You've got to be ready for the injection of fame into his life. And I'm sure they are. I'm absolutely sure they are.

Elliot Smith23:20Do think he comes into the right environment in the sense that not just Mikel Tetta, but the players that are at the club currently and the England players who are at the club currently too, right, because that matters in terms of your desire to be in the national team. I remember I think it was at 16 was it Sven Goren Ericsson brought Theo Walcott to the World Cup. And it was just a huge mistake for the player for the national team. It was unwanted and unnecessary attention on him. He wasn't a factor in that. I think what we want to avoid is that right, we want his summer to be low key, we want his summer to be some relaxation, some fitness, some training and some preparation for a season next season where he could be a big contributor. But let's face it, if he winds up playing an important role for Arsenal down the stretch this season, you can't stop. Yeah, yeah.

Clive Palmer24:00Can't stop talent, mate. You can't stop talent. You can't stop talent. If talent's talking to you and it gives you a better chance of winning, that talent will play. If things are overplayed, if I'm concerned with, but you can't stop talent.

Elliot Smith24:13Yep. Well, all right. Look, there was another talent on the pitch I want to talk about briefly. And then we'll get into some of the moments of the game, the goals, the essay and non a nonny some of the players who maybe didn't perform as well in the front three and we'll look ahead to buy our lever choosing game but Marley salmon led us in final third entries Marley salmon did that in just what 59 ish minutes on the pitch, I think yeah 59 minutes on the pitch 36 or 43 passing very assured eight final third entries. He did have the one moment where he sold mascara a little bit short night. I don't think mascara did him any favors. I think mascara handled the situation poorly. And I think keppa handled the situation poorly, honestly. But on that moment, what Mikel said is, yeah, I have to watch it back. But I could sense that he was responsible. It is good in a way, but don't lose perspective. Because everyone that's been in that room that has been at that level has made an error, a mistake or a situation leading to a goal. But that's not important. The important thing is the way he played and some of the things that he's done on the pitch. I think that's much more important than the other parts. Again, know, Calafiori came off with a little knock, Ben White nowhere to be seen lately, Saliba's carrying a bit of an ankle thing. Much like Max Dauman, Marley Salmon has an opportunity to show that he belongs in the group. I think it is a little more crowded group and maybe a group where experience is a little more needed, but he's in the group nonetheless. And I'm curious how you evaluate his performance, including maybe the error that led to the goal.

Clive Palmer25:35Yeah, the area you've nailed it, I think it's 50-50. Think he had a chance to open out and go forward. He went backwards, he's going backwards a bit like SuperMedi did the other day when you're off balance and you play the Chelsea one when you're off balance and you play it short. That's when you just got to have a touch. But you know, you want to keep the ball moving. You want to keep moving. And that pitch is crap. Do you know what mean? And so actually, I thought he tried to put a good contact on it. And I thought Mosquera just needs to jump in there. He just needs to jump in and take stop the problem before it starts. And hey, it's one of those things, he's watching more of the picture end of the game, and he looked gutted and still gutted and thinking about it. But I'm sure someone's had a word with him and say, don't worry about that at all. Don't worry about it. And it happens all the time. And so actually, I think his story is almost as big, you know, because he's obviously very young, 16, you're sent back at youth level, but you're played right back in the first team or right centre back in the three to start the game off, which was unusual for anybody to play that role. Lots of space to handle, lots of ballplay to handle in the back three, your part to build up. And he was quiffing out of danger. He was just doing things that you just smile to yourself and think, Crikey, you're not scared. And I think the thing is to not be scared. You know, I thought all three of the kids that came into this game made their debuts. They didn't look afraid.

Elliot Smith26:58Jaden Dixon, look good to you.

Clive Palmer27:00Yeah, he's got an England pedigree and in the same year as Max's year, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Elliot Smith27:05Dixon from Stoke at right back. History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes.

Clive Palmer27:11And again, physically he was maybe a bit more advanced because he's two years older and what a great moment for him, right? He's suddenly thrust into that environment. It wasn't a very good surface, but a great environment with men with beards, mate, coming for you, pressing you and with long studs. It's like, you've got to grow up quick. You've got to grow up quick. There's manicured pitches or academy pitches around the country. And now you're in this environment. I think it's just great. I actually looked at this game as a really big development game. You know, I looked around and I looked, if I was doing an IR from the ground, I would have done it from a developmental perspective. And I thought we learned a lot about development of this team. And I'm talking about seasoned players as well, player by player. How are they developing? And the reason why I say that is that we potentially can have another 15 games or so this season if we get to the final of everything. And if you think the current group is going to manage that, the current first 11 air quotes, it's not going to happen. So this game is absolutely critical to see where people are, how they are developing, how they are handling not playing, where they are in their fitness and sharpness. And so I actually thought it was a really positive day.

Clive Palmer28:28A really positive day apart from maybe the two little niggly injuries.

Elliot Smith28:32Yeah, well, there were there were just so many moments from the 16 year olds that I really enjoyed and obviously down with the shooting with his dribbling with his providing for other players just caught the eye in a way that says we need more of that. Maybe if that's not him this season, that's going to be him soon. Clem Mansfield had seven shots in the first 20 minutes, the most of any opponent against Arsenal this entire season. And some of that is the changed lineup and some of that was the back. Three and I think Mikel pretty quickly realized he had made a mistake there. Don't even know if it was an injury that made him change. I think it was like, all right, you're a little bit hurt. That's fine. Let's make a change and go to a back four. But what'd you make of that back three with Mosquera Marshalling it in the middle and Califiori and salmon on either side. It didn't look super comfortable for the team and we did give Mansfield some openings as a result.

Clive Palmer29:21Yeah, you know what, mate, don't get too worried about it. The levels were massively, massive gap. You could have done, you could have played a back one for the first 15 minutes, took a few shots and still won the game. Right? So let's not get over it. There were people jogging on that pitch. Honestly, they were probably getting cold. They weren't running around enough. They were doing what they needed to do to get through the game.

Elliot Smith29:42It really struck me to that point when Noni scored what is a really lovely goal and just walked away like no celebration at all.

Clive Palmer29:47Yeah. Nonchalant. Yeah. You know, it's just almost disrespectful the way he smashed it in the net. And so we started off almost like a back four diamond. I used to do this system when I was coaching. Back four, you have one ball player in front of a back three and you keep that back four in place, but it's a diamond shape. Also you're giving space into wide areas and you choose what sort of profile you have in your wing areas. And so we had Mark Nellien sort of made a wicket. And they were looking at the game thinking, I don't want to come back too far. Let me see can stay up here and make couple of runs. I don't want to tackle. So Norgard was mastering everything. Was doing all the ball progressing, being available for Marlies every time he got in a bit of danger. He was there for a bounce to help him get out. I thought he looked after them really, really well. And we just did what we had to do. And then when we had an injury, we made a change to something a little bit more traditional. It just made sense. You don't do the same thing. And then we just push people slightly into more traditional positions and went from there. But I quite enjoyed it. We're going to see a back three again, mark my words, when we're one-nil down in a really critical game, trust me, we're taking the defender off. Know, so people look at back three, I just look at it from a lack of cohesion, a lack of role clarity and people weren't always there and they were just jogging alongside people, they were having shots. They weren't shots that were really threatening. They were shots with half the goal covered, you know, and.

Clive Palmer31:12There was one at the back post potentially that could have been a bit dangerous if you called it well. But if you'd called it well, we'd have gone out of pitch and scored. So, just the way it is.

Elliot Smith31:20Yeah, I mean, I thought they had some decent openings, honestly, but it was it was a well contested cup tie with a very changed and youthful Arsenal team. And there was fun things at both ends. It's not a perfect performance, but it's the performance you needed under the circumstances. Surely, I'm sure Mikel would have liked to have kept Piero and Kapi and maybe wrapped in cotton wool a little more given that he's really gonna have to lean on him. Califiori, of course, came off with a little knock. And the rumors are that Leo and Califiori aren't in a bad way. But you know, with Calafiori, you're always sort of concerned at how much he trusts his own body in those situations.

Clive Palmer31:53You can imagine that the manager said, if you feel anything on this pudding pitch, anything at all, let me know and we'll get you out. And that's what they did. And so I'm hoping it's nothing there. Obviously, always a worry we carry if you're young.

Elliot Smith32:06Yeah, well with Leo, I'm less concerned with Calafiori. The thing that was weird is the way he did it was kicking the ball and stretching his hamstring. We sort of he kind of stretched at a weird angle with a high kick. And then he went down holding the back and anytime players touching their hamstring. You your concern is that

Clive Palmer32:20Yeah, they don't take any risks.

Elliot Smith32:22There's going to be time out but I do want to touch on maybe the less positive aspects of performance and we come back to maybe average as a bit a few other things before moving on to the Champions League. And

Clive Palmer32:33Just on Calafiori for a second, just quickly, Italy have a massive World Cup playoff game coming up and where he's critical to that team. And so double, not just for us, but for that as well. He's going to be, that's a very important moment for him. So I do hope for his sake he's okay.

Elliot Smith32:52Yeah, I think you're going to start to see some interesting business decisions being made by players, especially on teams that aren't fighting for much about orienting themselves to be fit for their national team as opposed to the club team, but

Clive Palmer33:07I look at it differently now, mate. If they have two weeks with the national team, they have two weeks in a different environment, which is a mental refresh. If you just, they don't have to play two games. That's the key. If they're too friendly, for example, you're already qualified, don't play two games. But to be in that environment, to train with your countrymen, to be closer to your families, for example, I think that's a really positive thing. So I just don't want it, obviously, Calafiori now, he's going to play two games. He is going to play two games and they're going to be really important games, you know, for his country. I'm not sure who else has got proper games to qualify for in his playoff area, but that's one that struck me the other day. And I think it's important that he's ready for that, for him, because he wants to go to World Cup as well. He doesn't want to sit out there until he hasn't qualified for the last couple. So, yeah, I think we'll see what happens. But I'm not against the players going. I think it's about the amount of game time they have. That's it for me.

Elliot Smith34:04Mean, all of a sudden at fullback, know, with Calif, you're always being a bit of a doubt and Ben White not being heard from for a bit. You know, Mazda with Skelly, don't you know, don't lose your fitness because you're going to come back into the group pretty quickly and have to play some minutes here. I don't think we've heard the last of him this season. But there were a couple performances I wanted to ask you about that weren't top notch in this game. And while there are lot of performances, I'm willing to just sort of shrug and move past because of the quality of the pitch. If Max Dowman can you know, dribble his way through the middle of the pitch and have the ball tied to his foot. I think you can expect a little more from Gabriel Jesus. And this was, I'd say this sort of the nadir of his return to the team since getting fit. He's, he's played more than I expected, and he's contributed more than I expected. This was certainly not one of his more encouraging performances. And you do wonder sometimes, when a senior professional is on a pitch like that in a game that you expect to win, does it sometimes impact how they approach the game and their focus and professionalism will never know that so it's hard to analyze but both he and Martin, Ellie to be fair who are players that usually thrive when they're on the pitch together. I thought failed to show the best aspects of their game. So do you have thoughts on

Elliot Smith35:20On Jesus and Ellie and their performance in general?

Clive Palmer35:22Yeah, it's, it's, everyone listening knows they didn't play great. Think Mark Nelly showed a bit more than I to. Yeah. And,

Elliot Smith35:29He had an assist.

Clive Palmer35:31He showed a bit more and he sort of ended the game in a good way. But I have disappointed some of the aspects of the early part of the game. But did I say to myself, what does this game mean to them? You know, seriously, it's completely different environment than anywhere else. It just means about getting through it and getting off the pitch in one piece. And not overextending yourself. Try to keep it simple, try to keep it moving. If anything, it's a bigger day for the club as a whole to turn up, get off the coach, meet as many fans as possible, talk to their dignitaries, talk to all the people that they might still have to come and see them. You can imagine they were in the sponsors lounge. You can imagine it. You can just imagine it. It's a very important day for us all to be seen by other people, to not be tapped away. These people are untouchable, to really engage with people, I think it's very important. I've seen clips that are happening and it sort of warms my heart that we're not too snobby to have a photo with kids, et cetera. I really like that. I think just get in, get out, do the job and just make sure you don't get injured. Hence why the injuries is an issue for me. As we sit in here and man-sit here in our thoughts, as we go to sleep every night and in our thoughts when we wake up.

Clive Palmer36:49I look at their squad and it's getting healthier. And they're

Elliot Smith36:52Yeah, they're about as fit as you could ask to be.

Clive Palmer36:54Getting healthier. Even players who are like John Stones who are not getting minutes, have now got some minutes. He looked rough at the beginning of that game, but he got better and better as the game went on. So they're getting healthier. We go to League One Man for where we get a break. We've got a Premier League club. We get a break. We ended up playing on Mars and we pick up two injuries. Flipping hell. And we're talking about who can come in. You know? And so the key for me is, I looked at as a development game, but I look at it also as a game of health. And I'm hoping those injuries are nothing, because we need to get healthy. There's a couple of players potentially we need to see. Kai's one of them, but Odegaard's another one. We can't rock up to this critical moment of the season and not have these players available. They need to be available and ready to play, because this is about to kick off now.

Elliot Smith37:45Was pretty surprised that Kai started. I mean, we got Champions League midweek and it made me think, Mikel wanted to start him to ramp him and see how he responds to the three day cadence because maybe Mikel starting to think it's go time. I'm to start to lean on Kai Havertz and push his body to respond well and be available. So maybe it's a good sign that he was picked. I thought he started the game pretty well actually. And then his influence Wayne but do you do you Follow a similar school of thought with Kai Havard starting this game that it's it's an effort by McKell to get his body used to the cadence of football every three days and ramping him up for the run in.

Clive Palmer38:23He's obviously key, he's going to get an hour and he got an hour at 30 % effort, shall we say. And so he's got his minutes in the tank. He's going back to his old club on Wednesday night. And so it's a part of me that says he'll want to play. You've got to read people sometimes, you? You can't go back to Leverkusen and be on the bench, right? So if he can do another hour there, that'd be really good. Because of them, we have the game. Of the week really Everton and that Everton I think it's the last league game for maybe four weeks and so if we can put that away we sit there you know in a good position so um so yeah I'd say you get an hour maybe on Wednesday I don't know maybe even half an hour you know but um but Everton I think he's very important I think he's incredibly important for Everton game and I would want to see him in that game.

Elliot Smith39:19Yeah, I, I think he's important for every game, candidly, like, if we had a 90 minutes every three days, Kai Havertz for the last two and half months of this season. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Clive Palmer39:28Mate, get your cigars

Elliot Smith39:31So we don't know what we will have, but that anything approaching that would be a difference for us. Um, a couple more things I want to tease out of this. But as far as ever to as it goes, he loves scoring in this competition, obviously helped palace when it last season. He comes on and he just does that thing he sometimes can do where he's like, I'm screw it, I'll do it myself. He takes a touch and he slams into the back of the net and he laughs and he's done and like, it is it is interesting. Watching him at times because it's everything the palace players told us when we did our as a pod on patreon earlier, we had a palace supporter come on and talk about him just say, he's gonna have days where he's not involved and he drives you crazy. But on the days when he's on it, he can do something other players can't do and that has really been the experience. And it's got to be frustrating for a manager in a way because you don't know which days those are going to be. But I still think given what we need from a goal scoring standpoint, a player who's got that talent in his boots, you got to find a way to use them and get them touches at the edge of the box. So just another encouraging reminder of what he can do if you get him the ball in those spaces.

Clive Palmer40:35So back to my development theme, this was a very, very good day for his development into the team. I thought he came on at 1-1, but he also scored an unbelievable goal. Mean, my goodness, how these pros can kick a ball like that, I just don't know how they do it, right? So that ball flew in, I don't think it even spun. It just went straight in pure. But also after that, we're watching this game and thinking, don't want an update, don't want any extra time. Come on, come on, just keep playing. Then he comes and drops deep, gets on the ball, looks after it, goes left, goes right, starts playing passes through. And I've often felt in his sort of introduction to the team that he's been very respectful and he plays position. So the manager says, I want you to pair up with Gyokeres. He does that. And I felt he hasn't felt free in his mind to just go and get the ball, wherever it is. And I thought in this game, his heat map was so much better. He went. In different areas, got on the ball, protected it, controlled the rhythm of the game, the sort of things that people said he can't do, and he did it. So from a stop deferring, stop worrying about being here, you're really, really good. If you feel you need to take over a game, then take over the game. You know, that's what other people do in that position. That's what Holy God does. If he feels he can go and take over and have 10 touches, he goes and has 10 touches. And he does it at the right time so that the game takes the temperature out of the game.

Clive Palmer42:01I thought it was a really encouraging moment for him and for with the team. I think he's growing in the team. I think his personality is growing in the club. I'm really excited about his end of season because he does that thing earlier, that thing that's quite important, which he can stick the ball in the back of the net. Yeah. And when you do that, people will always cover up for the things you don't do so well. But if you're doing things well and you put the ball in the back of the net and he has a sort of a technique that in winning time. It's the same, know, he'll take it on. And I'm just conscious of this change in psychology that you just need people that just feel brave enough to do it. You know, and he's one of those. And we started off talking about Max, he's one of those, but Kyle's one of those. I'm brave enough, accountability, give it to me, I'm going to do it. And there are other players, sometimes I look at them, I think they lack intelligence, they're lacking understanding of the moment. They lack that and it annoys me. For me, execution doesn't ever bother me too much. It's about your intention and your intelligence to understand what the game requires. And as I thought, probably had his best game for that. You know, he's had more spectacular games. But for understanding what the game required that one moment he comes on, delivers, I thought that's one of his better performances.

Elliot Smith43:23Yeah, yeah, it's great to see. I think it's gonna be really interesting to see how Mikel picks his team. We'll get to this for Leverkusen and for the upcoming stretch before the international break. I mean, he just got a performance out of Martinelli that might give him some pause about what he's gonna do there. Will Leo be fit to start midweek? Could as a finally have the long awaited left wing start again since his failure to track Maddie Cash against Everton against Avila? You know, what does he make of Gabriel Jesus? Because I still think striker isn't an open discussion in some ways. Lots of interesting things for him to consider. We're gonna talk quickly about the post match presser and then we'll talk Leverkusen. But before we do that, I do want to let you know tomorrow, we will have a round of 16 preview pod with Phil. Phil is not doing great. His back is giving him a lot of problems. I'm sure if you listen to the Ars Cast, you know that so we miss you, Phil and we love you and we hope you can get some relief for the pain you're going through but he is going to take all the painkillers and do a podcast with us tomorrow. Previewing the round of 16. So join us for that over on the Patreon.

Elliot Smith46:51Okay. So I'm just gonna wind you up and let you go here. I wasn't sure we should even talk about it. But we might as well. After the match, there was a local reporter who said, McKelley, you guys tried to play football today. Was that a change in your strategy? And it was an embarrassing question for the reporter. McKelley thought handled it with as much grace as you can expect. He didn't berate him or do anything. He just said, you know, we Yeah, he stared him

Clive Palmer47:12Stared at him though.

Elliot Smith47:15Down a bit. He smirked at him, stared him down. He didn't get the what a surprise from him, at least. But I mean, look, it is what it is. You sent me a clip of Sunday supplement. I wish you hadn't. It's dinosaur football discussions complaining that Arsenal are good from people who don't come from London and don't like London clubs. But it's pretty clear that Mikel is going to get prodded about this narrative the rest of the way he's just gonna have to keep his composure. You have any thoughts about it?

Clive Palmer47:39I have lots of thoughts. Dominic King on Sunday morning, you know, he should know better. Why, why'd I say that?

Elliot Smith47:47Embarrassed himself. I mean, just candidly, his smirking, sneering, dismissiveness, the way he laughed off counterpoints, the way he monologued about it. I mean, the Sunday supplements not worth watching at the best of times. But this just felt like winding people up for the sake of winding them up. It was so tone deaf. I just couldn't bear it.

Clive Palmer48:07Yeah, I look forward to that show. Tried to watch it, but I was so disappointed in it this week. It all depends on the guest quality. Thought Diamond does a great job hosting it. And Karl Anker was absolutely magnificent in the email. And Karl Anker is a man United man. And he spoke as well as any other arsehole person could do. And he sort of said something that we've all said, you know, arsehole two, three years ago when we were doing our saliva into party, into over the guardian of sacchar stuff, no one. No one knew who we were. We just did it. And then since then, people have been stopping us. And he sort of said, you know, every time Sacher gets a boy, he's got three men on him. Everyone knows where we're going, right? So, so we've had to change. And we're all saying for competitions, there are mitigating factors to what's happening right now. But I don't want to apologize for what's happening right now. What's happening right now is, could be the greatest time I asked to watch in life. I've been watching a long, long time. And it just feels so reductive. And I'm trying. I used to get really sensitive about this stuff. And I used to think, come on, I expect better from some of these people. They just have to realize the game and the game is to create stories in between the game. And we are the story. And there are many people that don't want us to win this thing. And which makes me think, please, please, just win this thing. Because the conversations I really want to have, I can't have yet. Because you've got to get, you've got to have the badge of winning.

Clive Palmer49:35You know, behind you. The local report, just following these really cheap narratives and in the end, we scored the most goals or equal most goals. We conceded way less than anybody else, scored the most goals in the Champions League. There isn't another thing we can do. We're in the final one competition. We're in the quarter final another competition. We're in the last 16 of the Champions League with the best record in the Champions League, scored the most goals in the Champions League, conceded the least goals in the Champions League. We're top of league by seven points in the second place team. Has a game in hand on us. And all we can do is do this. I look at the game as a whole, and there are things changing in the game, about how it's play styles, how we play off the ball, et cetera. And the game is evolving. So how about look at that, rather than look at a particular team. When you look at this season as a whole, Eddie, just for a second, if you look at him, we've got a title race, which we didn't have last season. Let's be honest, we come second, we had to fight for second. We have. Relegation race. Last year the bottom three teams were it was clear from a long time that they were going down so there's no jeopardy at the bottom of the league no jeopardy at the top of the league. This year at the bottom of the league we have got two clubs in West Ham and Tottenham that have 60,000 seat at stadiums. Tottenham have the seven highest waste bill in the league and they have the ninth highest revenue in world football and they're in a relegation battle.

Clive Palmer51:04This shows the competitiveness of this league, not in the first European champions of yesteryear. With Leeds, with West Ham, with Spurs, all fighting to stay in the league. That's an incredible story, incredible story at the bottom end of the league, an incredible story at the top in the league. We're asked to fight against a nation state that has spent more days at the top of the table for the last three years than any other club in the country, and we haven't got a league title. We're trying to do something to get us over the line to win. But when I say do something, I say that, say, what are we trying to do? We're just trying to win a game of football. We're trying to win a game of football in four competitions. So not as if we're going for one competition and we're stinking the place out. We're playing a trick, sometimes in an attritional league, we're playing attritional football to get the result that other teams are not getting up to this point. You know, we're sitting there, how many points have we had at Liverpool? 15, 16, 17 points have at Liverpool? 19, there you go, mate. Can you imagine we'd have a conversation this time of the year?

Clive Palmer52:04Saying we'll be 19 points ahead of Liverpool.

Elliot Smith52:07Since they went five points clear of us, they are on a 52 point pace. It's not talked about given the amount of money they spent on the attack. And by the way, Arna slot wants to tell everyone who will listen, the opponents don't let me play in a way where I can go and attack. He's telling you, Pep Guardiola

Clive Palmer52:20Yeah, it's like, well, what about?

Elliot Smith52:22Is telling you, it's gotten more physical. It's man to man, everything's man to man. The players are too athletic, too physical, too well organized. It's all man to man. You have to play the football that's available to you.

Clive Palmer52:32To play the footballs available to you and it's a deep discussion about football and where it is and there are some aspects of football which I don't always like but you know what I do? I accept that that's where the game is at this moment in time. I watched Inter Milan and AC Milan yesterday on a Sunday night and mate, they're winding up for long throws mate. They're winding them up to go into the box. This is just where we are in the game. I personally, if you ask me honestly, I don't really like the long throw aspect. I think it takes too long. You know, that's the one bit I don't really like, but you know what they're doing? They're making people defend their box. You would get it first phase, second phase. I can't tell a team not to try to use an advantage that they have to put a ball into an area when someone might make an error or you might get a first contact, second contact and score a goal in a Milan derby. I'm not going to say, well, I don't like these long throws. Behave yourself. We analyze the games with such a critical view, microscopic view, we have people find out their jobs real quick if they don't win, and we criticize them and try to derail their careers. I want them to use every single resource at their fingertips to make their respective teams better. Don't moan about how a team plays against you. Find a way to beat them. Do you think I like watching all low block games last year at the Emirates? I didn't. We have to find a way. Sometimes we did.

Clive Palmer53:59We end up with 14 draws. Sometimes we didn't. We're fixing that this season by making sure we take care of every single detail we possibly can. That's all we can do. Didn't mean we're gonna win, but we're trying to improve. And rather than look at that, you wanna just use us as the flag bearer for the change in the game. I don't think other people are buying into it. I don't know. I'm not too much online to see some of that. I just think we should need to focus on what we're doing and hopefully get the wins that we need to give us the best end of season we'll ever have.

Elliot Smith54:36Yeah. I mean, Martin Samuel had a whole back page spread on how horrible we are and how we're, we're a disgrace to the legacy of Ferguson and venger and Klopp and pep. Interestingly, did not mention Jose Mourinho. Interestingly, which is an interesting intellectual sleight of hand. Look, in f1, you put the tires on for the course you're running, right? If it's wet, if it's a fast track, if it's slow track, you put the right tires on, you've got to have the right tires on for the for the track and you know, we are the right team for this track right now. And that may change, we may need to do other things. And if it doesn't work, then I welcome every criticism that says we could have done it a different way. You know, I do think that it is the case that the team at the top is often scrutinized a little more strongly. I do remember tiki takka football being called boring by people when Pep was doing it. And I do remember Jose Mourinho coming in for some criticism, I you know, I remember our some bangers team being called soft and they don't like it up them. And now that we aren't soft, it's that we're not pretty enough. There's always going to be some of that because it gets clicks. Understanding, you know, what to ignore and what not to is important. And I think we're lucky in a way. And in that we're we have access to some content that is thoughtful and intelligent and entertaining and worthwhile that we can choose as opposed to 15, 20 years ago when all you had was things like Sunday supplement. And, you know, our players getting their ankles broken and

Elliot Smith55:58Journalists going on TV saying that we're soft and we don't like it up them. So it's at least a better media landscape. I think this is an opportunity for Mikel to just create that siege mentality and get the players to feel that it's us versus the world. And so to the extent that he can leverage that and point to interviews like this and say, see what they're saying about you, you see how they're dismissing you, nobody wants you to do this, nobody thinks you can do it. I think that can be an advantage. So just use it.

Clive Palmer56:25I think so. Think there's a moment here now where I feel this team is ready to win. And so I almost don't want them to get too tense and worry about it. Just like, just play the game. Just play the game that's in front you. Because I've seen the team tense. We didn't play very well against Manchester United. We got overly tense. And it wasn't about talent, it was about our psychology to manage the moment. So I'm just hoping that they just continue in a nice, relaxed way. And play their football and enjoy each other's company. Make sure that we enjoy it, which we're all trying to do. And the last couple of away games from people I know have gone, obviously Tim Weir at the weekend, load of fun. Load of fun had by all, you know? And really good environment, really people supporting the team, everything they've got. These are special moments, man. These are special moments. I don't want to get too wound up by these people. I want to just make sure. That we stay, I'm trying to stay cool every time. Yeah. Well, they, they, I'll see. I was disappointed by

Elliot Smith57:23They've got you in their clutches, Clive. Let's just face it, they got you right where they want you.

Clive Palmer57:28That Dominic King. I was disappointed by him. And I, did send Carla a note today to say thank you for being objective, you know, that's all you need to be is objective, right? And not try to take Mickey out of teams, but hey, look, let, let them worry about what Liverpool are doing, you know, and what Everton are doing up there and what they, where they are. And then Let's just focus on what we're trying to do. And this is not over, by the way. I think the fear, is if we win. This is the start of something. It's not the end of something, it's the start of something. And that's what they're all really afraid of. You know, if we win, the manager's good age. He's got good support around him. The players contracts are in the bin, all sorted, you know, and there's a bit of renewal to do, but it's probably well in advance already arranged. And there are players out there that are thinking, I like Arsenal, I like what they're doing, you know, and that's okay.

Clive Palmer58:28The worst thing I want is the one emotion I don't want to see is apathy. I don't want people to be apathetic about us. When people are talking about us and being negative, I don't like it, but it's all right. When people are talking about being positive, I don't like that neither because I think we might get complacent, but it's all right. When people are not talking about it because you're just rubbish or you just got nothing about you, you know, that's the emotion you don't want. They know we're coming. And they know there's gonna be a massive, massive cultural reset in London, mate. My goodness. What's gonna happen around the world if Arsenal win? You're gonna find out how many Arsenal fans you know in your life. Trust me, you're gonna find out. You will not be able to move for us. And they know this is coming and I'm just hoping and praying it actually happens.

Elliot Smith59:17Yeah, well, we are and look, to be fair, though, if you get bad enough, they start talking about you again, just ask Tottenham Hotspur who got to enjoy watching scenes for example, like Lincoln who moved top of League One chanting Tottenham away, away, Tottenham away, No,

Clive Palmer59:32They'll stay up.

Elliot Smith59:34No, they're going down. They're good. We're doing the quint, the quint, I'm telling you the league, the Champions League, the League Cup, the FA Cup and Spurs go down. It's the quint, the historic quint that we've all been looking for. All right, let's talk. Fire Leverkusen. 3-3 at the weekend. They're having a mixed season to say the least. They're not the classic Bayer Leverkusen team of a couple seasons ago when they went invincible in the league and made it all the way to the Europa League final losing that. I think they also won their domestic cup, right? So they've been unbeaten in everything until that final. So nearly, yeah. Yeah, so nearly historic

Clive Palmer1:00:07They the Europa League final literally and that was the only game they lost all season. So very unlucky.

Elliot Smith1:00:13Trouble, but didn't quite work out for them. But they do have obviously some talent. I'm not going to pretend to be a huge expert. We'll talk to Phil more on tomorrow's pod a little bit more about what to expect from them. I do believe though that the sort of star of the show there is their left wing back Grimaldo Alejandro Grimaldo who's a big goal scorer for them. They you know, they will be hosting Kai Havertz in the in the return to his home if he is fit and available. Clive, we've been so, so good in Europe, but our performances recently have been a little bit mixed. So do you expect to see more of our European form return? What are you thinking about for this game?

Clive Palmer1:00:50Yeah, well, we're playing, they play a pack three system. And I know they've got Patrick Schicchi, I don't think he's gonna be able to play, you know, based on reports. And they're also in a battle for the top four with RB Leipzig and Stuttgart. So actually, this is a really big game for much likes, birds playing, Afletico Madrid. It's a European game. You know what the bigger game is potentially at the weekend. And to make sure you're in the league and a bigger game for I'm not saying that's gonna be the case for by Leverkusen, but the gains in the league are really important to the back of the competition next year, because we all know finances are massive in this competition.

Elliot Smith1:01:27They're currently three points off a Champions League place and they have Bayern Munich at the weekend as you mentioned. So it's not a case where I think they can just shrug that off, you know.

Clive Palmer1:01:37No, they can't. And hey, look, we just got to do our work, right? And it's actually quite nice to have two games outside the league, that sort of league pressure, because the Brighton game, although I thought we were okay in that game, we all know the tension around it with what Gainesport Man City doing at the same time. And so, yeah, it was quite nice to have this. I think in the Champions League, it just felt good from minute one. And it's almost like the things that we're getting criticized for. Absolutely work in the Champions League times three. There's no one that can live with us at the moment. We've got our component parts in place. I still often find myself missing Mikel Merino for some of these games, just some of these controlling moments. I

Elliot Smith1:02:21I miss him terribly.

Clive Palmer1:02:22Think he's such an intelligent player. I understand the rhythm of a game. He's just a brilliant coach on the pitch. And I just think he's such an intelligent guy that was. And as you get to know him, you just think, mate, you should be here for these moments because we're going to need you. So other people need to step up when they're starting to do that. I actually thought Madweke's attitude that we came, I really enjoyed it. And that's from somebody that questioned his attitude before when he was at Chelsea, questioned what he was doing. He's come into Arsenal and his attitude to go out there, no matter when he plays, when he doesn't play, he just wants to produce it. I to see more of that. And so. Leibkirchen back three, we are really good against back threes. We seem to know what to do to get her on the outside, their center back to make it a five and really pin them in. And I just think, know, Gyokeres was kept sitting there ready and waiting to pin three defenders, which gives us the overload elsewhere. He's done that before. I think he'll do it again with lots of runs in behind the lateral movement. So yeah, I'm expecting a, hopefully just for this to continue and just keep ticking the games off, you know.

Clive Palmer1:03:29In all the European games, felt the Bayern Munich one was special. I quite enjoyed the Bill Bauer game. That was a bit more of a struggle. I remember the first one away from home when we scored quite late. Looking back, that was a quite hard game, but we just managed that one in the end. They've all been great to watch, you know. So, yeah, let's see if we can keep it going.

Elliot Smith1:03:50We know the atmosphere will be febrile. Is that the word? Let's go with that.

Clive Palmer1:03:54It worked for me.

Elliot Smith1:03:55I mean, look, if it isn't the word, no one's gonna say anything. If it is the word, then it's fine.

Clive Palmer1:04:02We may get a Tim Stillman of South London messaging and give you the exact word, you never know.

Elliot Smith1:04:07Yeah, that's fine. I'm not good with the, you know, the words. But it'll be an intense atmosphere. I think sometimes it can be difficult for a team to go into a game where they're so expected to go through. You have to obviously stay focused and take it very, very seriously. But I, I actually think that the Champions League, much like the FA Cup gives us a chance to take a breather from the league, I think that the players will be well up for it. And ultimately, when we've faced these teams from other leagues, I think what you've seen is the intensity and the physicality and the pace that the League teams play with just is something that the opposition is not prepared for. They are just not prepared for the tempo of our play and the physicality of our play. You know, that's a big component.

Clive Palmer1:04:53I think so. Also mate, we're quite good at managing the environments now because when we rock up, we are big team. So you're getting the best crowd. Whenever you turn up, there's a light show. Do you know what I mean? Not a light show every other week. A light show for us. And it's like, okay. And then there's a TFO there ready for you. And they bring their best, right? They bring their best for you. And so we're able to manage that. The brain of our team really is now the two centre backs and the two centre mids. That box four at the back, we have a box four at the front. If you look at that, the box four at the back, Rice, Supermendy, Gabriel, Sleeva, were all in their carpet slippers at the weekend. And because they know we have two to three big games in a week that are really important when those four will be playing. And if they're playing, I feel pretty confident about what we can do in other spaces. So that's the key for me.

Elliot Smith1:05:48Yep. And by the way, Manchester City go to Real Madrid and then they have to go away to relegation threatened West Ham and you might say it's just West Ham. But I actually think this is the time of the year we'd actually rather face a mid table team than a relegation threatened team in terms of the fight that you're going to confront. What we want is tough, we need to thread the needle here. We want city to have a really, really tough game against Madrid, so that they are shagged out and maybe weakened for West Ham. But we want them to get through the Madrid tie so that

Clive Palmer1:06:20Yeah, we do.

Elliot Smith1:06:20They have Bayern on either side of their games against Chelsea and us in the league. So interesting needle to thread there. As far as our game, I think it is as simple as just don't look past it, make sure you're focused. I think we should have too much for them. We'll cover it in more depth with Phil tomorrow. I'm patron if you want to join us for that. We'd love to have you but Clive sort of any final thoughts on player availability or how you'd like to see I mean, would you know, if Leo had a little bit of a knock mark, Nellie has always been good in the Champions League not coming off his strongest performance, but would you do the yoke dress? And Nellie thing again, when that hasn't always looked like a good combination with sack on the right? Would you if Leo is not available? Would you would you move as a left and bring someone else in the midfield? What would you do?

Clive Palmer1:07:06Taylor. Whenever, whenever I always keep seem to keep my lady a lot of stick. I don't I don't mean to. But when he's serious, which he has been in Europe, and he seems to have this thing that he wants to do well, he's our top score. I think it's called six goals in Europe. I think sometimes you got to play the hand but he played the full game during the weekend. You know, so I'm so I'm just wondering about that. I'm not sure we're to do as A left earlier, but if we do, he'll be fine. I think we've got to keep playing him.

Elliot Smith1:07:41And then do you think Kai would come into midfield as a starter there potentially?

Clive Palmer1:07:45You see, I would probably do, if it was me, if Kai Havertz can play this game, he should play. But I'm just conscious of the Everton game. I think it's massive. I think it's the biggest game of the season so far. If we win it, I think it's going to change things. Because I think West Amway is going to be tough for us. It's going to be tough for City. You know, they are way better than their league positions showing. And so. That's a game I'm really thinking about, Everton also, Everton, when they come to us, David Moyes, he just brings it. He brings the best version of them. They've had a good break again for their play-offs. I think this is a huge game. They've got big birdie defenders that can manage us in the air, in the box, and they position themselves really well low, and the goalkeeper is flying around at the moment, saving airplanes. I am concerned about that game. So if you ask me.

Elliot Smith1:08:44It worries me that you're already talking about that game and not lever accusing because we can't afford to be thinking this way, you know.

Clive Palmer1:08:50I know, I know, but Lavecousin, we've got another chance. We've got the second leg at home. Whatever happens, we've got another chance.

Elliot Smith1:08:56So would you be more cautious with players who are on the edge then would you for example, would you have Kai on the bench, Lee on the bench, Calviari on the bench, make sure you're not overextending players knowing you have a chance to right wrongs?

Clive Palmer1:09:06If we put this game away at the weekend, we're in a really good position. You know, a really good position. To me, Elliot, I want to win the Champions League like everybody does, but I really want to win that league. I want to win that league. Want to shut up.

Elliot Smith1:09:21When after Everton our next league fixtures, what like a month away because we're going to play city in the league cup final, then there's an international break. So, you know.

Clive Palmer1:09:29So this is why it's important to leave that mark. Don't leave the opportunity for that gap to close. Close, make sure you extend it to the absolute maximum so you can put that game away in your mind, put that competition away in your mind. Focus on player health, focus on players traveling away. Get through the Champions League, get to the quarterfinals, see if we're playing on the plastic pitch or playing sport. And we've been to sporting before. We know what that looks like. And then, know, par this season is semi-final. You know, it's par in the Champions League, isn't it? Really? And people are going to expect us to get to the final to get a birdie per se. You know, and if get to the final, if we get to the final, we won the league, then we're winning that. I'll tell you that for nothing. Yeah, if we won the

Elliot Smith1:10:10Just got a tingle. You made it made it sound so fait accompli. We're winning it all.

Clive Palmer1:10:16League, if we won the league and we go to the Champions League final, it's going to be a hard stop. I really feel that.

Elliot Smith1:10:22Yeah, once that pressure valve is turned off, look out. Yeah, I agree.

Clive Palmer1:10:26But you know, baths don't, we're making assumptions on baths in a by the way, because you know, I'm not sure that's a sure thing. But there is, we can take, we can get there if we're in health, you know, this course, sometimes you're seeing players come out in warmups and things and coming off with, the manager knows what he's doing here. He wants his team healthy when it really matters. And that's what Pep's doing. That's what he's done. He's brought signings in, he's brought people in. And now for the first time, they're starting to do better in second half because he can now make changes because he's got less injuries. We need to get back to that level of absolute strength. We're not far away. Got a couple of downs. Absolute strength in our squad so that we're not running Timber out. You know, we're not running Saliba out. We need Ben White back quick, you know, and he's a really important player for us. We need Odegaard back because there will be a day we need to hide the ball. He's coming, you know? And so we need him back, but back, not Odegaard back, leave good Odegaard back. You know, someone wants to take control of games and run the games. We need that, you know? So, it's getting exciting now, man. He got me going, for God's sake.

Elliot Smith1:11:42You're fired up. Look, Wednesday night, the right hand side is going to be really interesting because they've got Grimaldi over there. He's their main threat. We've got timber and sack on that side. So they got to decide, are they going to let him roam and go and attack? Is he going to have to stay in and try to help that right hand side that timber sack aside is going to really, really matter. So I look at how you platform that. And I actually think if Kai can start, I love the idea of Kai sacking and timber creating those triangles on the right there and how that can disrupt things I don't think as comfortable on that side of the pitch, pitch, either bring him in off the bench or let him stay on the left where he can influence it from there. But one way or another. I think we have what it takes for that game. And I sort of see your point that given there's a second leg to right wrongs, if the outside, you know, chance happens and we have to just don't don't play anyone into the red zone tomorrow. If you don't have to, that would sort of be that would sort of be the word of caution. Because if you can beat Everton, and spend three or four weeks with that as the last result in the Premier League city unable to close the gap for a month. And you've got a cup final against them to maybe lay down a marker. A lot's gonna a lot's gonna happen between now and then but beating Everton means that nothing is going to happen in the league except for us staying seven points clear. And that's where we want to be. I think we're gonna leave it there. We'll have the round of 16 preview with Phil tomorrow on Patreon. We'd love to have you over there. Just happy to have you over here. Just happy that we're here having this kind of chat instead of whatever the heck kind of chat they were having on Sunday supplement another

Elliot Smith1:13:05Places like that. So stay with us. We got you covered. Clive, thanks.

Clive Palmer1:13:09Thank you very much.

Elliot Smith1:13:11My name is Elliot Smith. We love you. And we will talk to you after our sunset by our little kitchen.